Andy: This is Echo Zoe Radio Episode podcast
Andy: outreach of Echo Zoe Ministries, where
Andy: you'll hear about important topics
Andy: affecting the church today.
Andy: Our primary goal is to explore a variety of
Andy: issues while remaining faithful to God and
Andy: his word.
Andy: Stay with us for the next hour as your host,
Andy: andy Olson, shares his conversation with
Andy: this month's guests.
Andy: Here's your host, andy Olson.
Andy: I'm Andy Olson.
Andy: Thanks for listening to Echo Zoe Radio.
Andy: This is episode 192 for August 2024.
Andy: Radio.
Andy: This is episode 192 for August 2024.
Andy: After a three-month hiatus, I'm back with
Andy: another episode.
Andy: Ryan Habana is also back as this month's
Andy: guest, bringing with him the topic which is
Andy: the seed promise.
Andy: In an attempt to get this episode posted at
Andy: the beginning of August, show notes are
Andy: minimal and this episode is audio only.
Andy: You'll find the episode page at echozoecom,
Andy: slash 192.
Andy: Finally, I want to remind everyone about
Andy: the Christian Podcast Community.
Andy: As a member of the Christian Podcast
Andy: Community, I can't recommend it highly
Andy: enough.
Andy: There are dozens of fantastic podcasts
Andy: available to the Christian Podcast
Andy: Community, focusing on a wide variety of
Andy: subjects, and all in a biblical manner.
Andy: While the podcasters in the Christian
Andy: Podcast Community don't agree on everything,
Andy: all of them seek to glorify God through
Andy: their shows.
Andy: Check them out at
Andy: christianpodcastcommunityorg.
Andy: And with that, here's my discussion with
Andy: Ryan.
Andy: Ryan, you're back.
Ryan: I'm back, yep, but you've been gone for a
Ryan: couple months, right?
Andy: The last episode I did was April, which I
Andy: posted at the end of April.
Andy: Yeah, so I'll say welcome back.
Andy: Well, thank you.
Andy: Yeah, so no May episode.
Andy: No June episode.
Andy: No July episode.
Andy: We're recording July 28th, but we'll post
Andy: this in August.
Andy: Yeah, it's good to have the yearly episode
Andy: on the calendar here.
Andy: Yeah, so, and I've actually already
Andy: recorded our introduction, conclusion and
Andy: stuff, so stick around if you're interested
Andy: on some of that.
Andy: The last two minutes of audio for this file.
Andy: I'll talk a little bit about the absence of
Andy: uh and not having episodes for three months
Andy: and kind of where that is and what's,
Andy: what's, what's been and what's coming stuff.
Andy: A little bit.
Andy: Not much to say, but if you're curious, the
Andy: last two minutes
Ryan: Cool.
Andy: So the uh topic you brought with us is the
Andy: seed promise.
Andy: Yeah, there, uh, with us is the seed
Andy: promise, yeah they're uh, you know, you
Andy: usually leave it in my lap to come up with.
Andy: You always come up with something better
Andy: than I could give you.
Ryan: Well, I don't know about that, but
Ryan: sometimes we, you know, when we've talked,
Ryan: we've talked about some, some things that
Ryan: are a little more laser focused.
Ryan: This is something that is is very broad in
Ryan: scope that we're going to talk about, but
Ryan: it's something that even within the next
Ryan: hour or so, however long we want to talk
Ryan: about this, we really can get into some
Ryan: elements of the scriptures that, if you're
Ryan: not aware of them, they really do help you
Ryan: advance in your knowledge of the whole
Ryan: counsel of God, in your knowledge of the
Ryan: whole counsel of God.
Ryan: And this seed promise, if you're unfamiliar
Ryan: with it, you might be unfamiliar with it in
Ryan: its explicit declaration, but the essence
Ryan: of the seed promise, if you're a believer
Ryan: in the Bible, if you're a believer in the
Ryan: gospel, in some way you know it already.
Ryan: You just maybe aren't categorizing it
Ryan: correctly or are just I say this in a nice
Ryan: way are just ignorant of the expansive
Ryan: nature of this theology that we find that
Ryan: begins in Genesis and goes all the way
Ryan: through the book of Revelation, and we'll
Ryan: probably get into how that specifically
Ryan: comes about, where we see that, in both the
Ryan: early chapters of Genesis as well as the
Ryan: book of Revelation, the word seed, the seed
Ryan: promise, revelation.
Ryan: The word seed, the seed promise is there.
Ryan: We'll talk about the essence of the word
Ryan: itself.
Ryan: But the other thing is, not only is there a
Ryan: promise with the seed, it's actually a war,
Ryan: and this war is the war of all human
Ryan: history.
Ryan: And we'll find that in the origin of this
Ryan: seed promise, seed war, this seed
Ryan: declaration in Genesis 3.15.
Andy: Now, when you bring topics, a lot of times
Andy: it seems to come out of your you know you
Andy: teach this through the Bible class and a
Andy: lot of times it seems to come out of that
Andy: because you'll bring in these topics that
Andy: relate to themes that are woven throughout
Andy: the scripture, beginning to end.
Andy: Is that really where this comes from?
Ryan: Yeah, it really is something that I do
Ryan: quite a bit.
Ryan: I teach cover to cover each year and
Ryan: oftentimes I have several classes where I'm
Ryan: doing that each year Genesis to Revelation,
Ryan: cover to cover in the Bible.
Ryan: And in order to do that in a way that
Ryan: people are going to grasp, you really do
Ryan: need to have these thematic things that
Ryan: people are looking for and looking at, and
Ryan: the seed promise is one of those pillars
Ryan: that, as we go from Genesis through
Ryan: Revelation, we'll constantly be noting that
Ryan: this is a seed promise.
Ryan: Here We'll be looking in Genesis or Exodus
Ryan: or Ruth, for instance, or the beginning of
Ryan: Matthew.
Ryan: You know this is the seed promise.
Ryan: And then conflicts.
Ryan: You know this is the seed war, the war
Ryan: between the seed of the woman and the seed
Ryan: of the serpent.
Ryan: And although it might not be explicitly
Ryan: declared as that in certain texts, the
Ryan: concept is there.
Ryan: So, yeah, you're right that you know.
Ryan: I think it was either last time or a couple
Ryan: years ago.
Ryan: We talked about the transfiguration, so
Ryan: even that, we have a singular episode that
Ryan: is chronicled in the Synoptic Gospels but
Ryan: that has big ramifications for the whole
Ryan: counsel of God, with the law and the
Ryan: prophets and the Messiah, the old covenant,
Ryan: the new covenant, elements that are therein.
Ryan: So it is kind of a hallmark of number one.
Ryan: I think it's good because I know we're
Ryan: going to have enough to talk about.
Ryan: So this will be a truncated version of
Ryan: looking at the seed promise.
Ryan: We'll see where, like I told you pre-show,
Ryan: we'll see where the conversation takes us,
Ryan: because there's so many different places we
Ryan: can go.
Andy: Yeah, well, that's like I said.
Andy: That's why I generally, when I ask you to
Andy: come on, I don't have a topic, because you
Andy: always have something.
Andy: That's like I said.
Andy: It's more interesting than I can bring and
Andy: ask you to talk about.
Ryan: Well, and again.
Ryan: If next year we're still doing this, you
Ryan: can always, if the Lord so wills, you can
Ryan: always throw a top in my way.
Andy: Yeah Well, and I still haven't had a chance
Andy: to do your Through the Bible course that
Andy: you do, but everybody I've ever talked to
Andy: who's done it just raves about it how
Andy: awesome it is.
Ryan: I think the reason people really are
Ryan: impacted by it is seeing the cohesive
Ryan: nature of the bible.
Ryan: Uh, it isn't.
Ryan: These aren't 66 loose books that are just
Ryan: disconnected to one another.
Ryan: This, these are 66 books that are united by
Ryan: the inspiration of Holy Spirit and there
Ryan: are particular themes that are flowing
Ryan: through each of the books.
Ryan: And, like I said, the seed promise, or the
Ryan: seed concept, is one that not only starts
Ryan: in Genesis 3.15, but it advances in
Ryan: different ways Genesis 3.15, but it
Ryan: advances in different ways.
Ryan: We'll talk a little bit about Abraham, this
Ryan: episode, and how important it is to
Ryan: understand the promise that God gives to
Ryan: Abraham regarding his seed, his offspring.
Ryan: And the scriptures tell us that if we're
Ryan: going to be saved, we have to be Abraham's
Ryan: offspring.
Ryan: And in what sense are we Abraham's
Ryan: offspring?
Ryan: And Paul answers that in Galatians, chapter
Ryan: 3.
Ryan: But that's the seed promise.
Ryan: It's a concept that is found early and
Ryan: again, this isn't anything novel.
Ryan: This isn't anything that I've in any way
Ryan: originated.
Ryan: This is something that is found in modern
Ryan: theology.
Ryan: It's found in ancient theology.
Ryan: It's found in even rabbinical,
Ryan: intertestamental works.
Ryan: So it is something that is ancient in not
Ryan: only its origins but ancient in its
Ryan: commentaries and, as far as our
Ryan: understanding of the seed promise, the New
Ryan: Covenant writings are primary because that
Ryan: helps us understand the fulfillment.
Ryan: What we find in the Old Testament for the
Ryan: most part is the promise and the
Ryan: advancement of the promise of the seed.
Ryan: It's ultimately with the coming of Christ
Ryan: that the seed promise finds its fulfillment.
Ryan: And then there is a one a one in many
Ryan: dynamic that we'll talk about, that uh,
Ryan: there is one seed, that's what paul says,
Ryan: but there's also many uh within this seed
Ryan: promise that are going to experience the
Ryan: crushing of the serpent's head or
Ryan: inheriting the uh, the promises given to
Ryan: abraham and their, their fourth and one of
Ryan: the other things we'll talk about a bit
Ryan: found in Genesis 3.15, is the seed war.
Ryan: There is a conflict that is announced in
Ryan: Genesis 3.15 between the seed of the woman
Ryan: and the seed of the serpent, and I think
Ryan: that's the conflict that is at the backdrop
Ryan: of kind of all human history, something
Ryan: that we can see throughout history.
Ryan: The seed of the serpent is against the seed
Ryan: of the woman, god's chosen line, god's
Ryan: chosen people and person, and that's
Ryan: something that we see throughout history
Ryan: and we see today.
Ryan: We see it rearing its head today as well.
Andy: Yeah, I was just going to ask you.
Andy: I assume you're starting in Genesis 3.
Andy: You've already said 3.15.
Ryan: Yeah, so why don't we just start there
Ryan: Again to contextualize this?
Andy: You want me to read it?
Andy: Sure, go for it.
Andy: So Genesis 3.15,.
Andy: I will put enmity between you and the woman,
Andy: and between your offspring and her
Andy: offspring.
Andy: He shall bruise your head and you shall
Andy: bruise his head - his heel.
Ryan: his heel yeah.
Ryan: So the context here is, of course, the, the
Ryan: fall of humanity.
Ryan: So the serpent has come and we know the
Ryan: serpent.
Ryan: Whatever else we want to say about the
Ryan: serpent, there's all sorts of interesting
Ryan: things we can consider, but the serpent is
Ryan: satan.
Ryan: That's something that we find in the
Ryan: commentary of the new testament, and not
Ryan: only history, but new testament
Ryan: specifically says the serpent of old is
Ryan: satan, and so this is the enemy, the great
Ryan: enemy of the people of god, the great enemy
Ryan: of humanity.
Ryan: And so he tempts Adam and Eve and they fall.
Ryan: And here, what we are finding here is the
Ryan: Lord giving announcements to the serpent,
Ryan: to the woman and to the man, to Adam.
Ryan: And so this what we find here in chapter 3,
Ryan: is directed to the serpent when he says I
Ryan: will put enmity between you and the woman.
Ryan: So there is conflict.
Ryan: The Lord is establishing enmity as conflict.
Ryan: So you have conflict between you and the
Ryan: woman.
Ryan: So Eve is the originator here.
Ryan: The one that is going to produce or is
Ryan: going to come forth from Eve is the
Ryan: fulfillment of the promise.
Ryan: Now we see the conflict then extends
Ryan: between your offspring and her offspring.
Ryan: So Eve is going to have offspring that
Ryan: comes forth from her, and the serpent also
Ryan: has offspring.
Ryan: Now this is a little bit of a tricky
Ryan: question is who is the serpent's offspring?
Ryan: And there are a few different ways we could
Ryan: go with that.
Ryan: Uh, there are um people that look at some
Ryan: of the early things that happened in
Ryan: Genesis.
Ryan: In regards to Genesis, chapter 6 and the
Ryan: sons of God going into the daughters of men,
Ryan: some people really look at that as perhaps
Ryan: the primary.
Ryan: I don't think that's the primary
Ryan: application here.
Ryan: I think, if we were to understand, what the
Ryan: primary application here is is found in
Ryan: John chapter 8.
Ryan: In John chapter 8, jesus is in a debate.
Ryan: We'll just summarize this.
Ryan: We're going to have to do a lot of
Ryan: summarizing today because there's a lot of
Ryan: places to cover.
Ryan: But in John chapter 8, there is a debate
Ryan: about who's Abraham's seed and the people
Ryan: of Jesus' day, and these were Jews that
Ryan: were initially following Jesus, and Jesus
Ryan: then challenges them in a way saying you
Ryan: know, if the Son makes you free, you will
Ryan: be free.
Ryan: Indeed, and this offended them because it
Ryan: was a declaration that they were slaves,
Ryan: slaves to sin, and this started off then a
Ryan: big, heated debate between Jesus and some
Ryan: of the Jews of the day, and Jesus really
Ryan: turns the table on them when he says I know
Ryan: you're Abraham's offspring, but you seek to
Ryan: kill me.
Ryan: And he says you are of your father, the
Ryan: devil, who again is opposed to the seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: And ultimately, as we advance here, we'll
Ryan: see that those that are opposed to God and
Ryan: his purposes, and God and his Messiah,
Ryan: these are the sons of the devil or of the
Ryan: seed of the serpent.
Ryan: So I don't think this is necessarily
Ryan: speaking of a natural progeny.
Ryan: I think it's speaking of a natural progeny.
Ryan: I think it's speaking of a uh, a figurative
Ryan: offspring.
Ryan: The son of satan isn't saying that they are
Ryan: actually spawns of satan, but rather they
Ryan: embody the opposition that satan has
Ryan: against god and his, his promise and people.
Ryan: So we have this enmity, we have this war
Ryan: and the word between your offspring and her
Ryan: offspring.
Ryan: Now the word here is in Hebrew, zerah, and
Ryan: Zerah is a term that means seed.
Ryan: It does mean seed or offspring, and it's in
Ryan: what's called the collective singular, and
Ryan: this is important.
Ryan: Paul actually speaks on the grammar of this
Ryan: in Galatians, chapter 3, which is the
Ryan: collective singular, is basically it's a
Ryan: word that, depending on context, can either
Ryan: be speaking of one or speaking of many.
Ryan: The English equivalent, seed is actually an
Ryan: English equivalent, but deer is another one.
Ryan: We wouldn't say there's a bunch of deers.
Ryan: We would say if there's one deer, there's a
Ryan: deer.
Ryan: Or if there's 20 deer we would say, oh,
Ryan: there's a herd of deer.
Ryan: So, depending on context, the word Zerah
Ryan: can mean one or many, and both, I think,
Ryan: are embedded here.
Ryan: So the serpent has offspring.
Ryan: He has many offspring that are opposed to
Ryan: God and his purposes, but there's also one
Ryan: that ultimately is going to uh go forth in
Ryan: ultimate opposition to god and his purposes
Ryan: and and I do think the ultimate seed of the
Ryan: serpent is going to be the antichrist uh,
Ryan: in the same way, the woman's offspring.
Ryan: And again, this is god's chosen lineage.
Ryan: Now this launches a promise that when we
Ryan: see here, we see he shall wound your head
Ryan: and you shall wound his heel, and I think
Ryan: wound is probably better rather than bruise.
Ryan: Bruise we kind of think of just a flesh
Ryan: wound.
Ryan: A wound is likely better.
Ryan: A heel wound is one that is brought about.
Ryan: It's not fatal, at least it's not decisive.
Ryan: I should say it's in the process of uh
Ryan: crushing the serpent's head.
Ryan: The uh, the he here, and the he here is in
Ryan: the singular, so the he here there is a,
Ryan: and it's a masculine singular, so there is
Ryan: a male child.
Ryan: That's what.
Ryan: That's all the evidence we're given here.
Ryan: That is going to crush the serpent's head.
Ryan: Uh, destroy the works of the devil is how
Ryan: john would put it.
Ryan: So, um, this is called by many, um, going
Ryan: again back.
Ryan: Like I said this, the commentaries on this
Ryan: go back a long ways this has been called by
Ryan: many the proto evangelium, or the first
Ryan: gospel, the first time the gospel.
Ryan: It speaks of the wounding but also the
Ryan: conquering of this he that is gonna come
Ryan: from Eve.
Ryan: So have you ever wondered why there is so
Ryan: many genealogies in the Bible?
Ryan: Let's be honest, most of the time we
Ryan: probably skip over them.
Ryan: If we're reading them, but especially the
Ryan: book of Genesis.
Ryan: But reading them, but especially the book
Ryan: of genesis.
Ryan: But again, going beyond the book of genesis,
Ryan: there are other ones.
Ryan: We have genealogies and the genealogy
Ryan: especially in the book of genesis, uh.
Ryan: And then when we get in the new testament,
Ryan: it's the same thing.
Ryan: It's tracing the seed promise.
Ryan: Uh, there's this war, remember, remember in
Ryan: Genesis that I'll put enmity between you
Ryan: and the woman, between her seat and your
Ryan: seat.
Ryan: I believe Cain and Abel are ultimately an
Ryan: expression of this seed war.
Ryan: The serpent counterattacks and he looks to
Ryan: either corrupt or destroy.
Ryan: So he corrupts Cain to murder righteous
Ryan: Abel, and then what we find is, you know, a
Ryan: male child of Eve is corrupted, a male
Ryan: child of Eve is destroyed.
Ryan: So they're both in kind of a sense
Ryan: disqualified, because again, the
Ryan: implication here is the one that destroys
Ryan: the seed of the woman is going to be
Ryan: righteous, not the seed of the woman, the
Ryan: seed of the serpent is going to be
Ryan: righteous.
Ryan: So then Seth is born, and then we have this
Ryan: genealogy that makes its way through the
Ryan: early chapters of Genesis, which brings us
Ryan: to, ultimately, to Noah.
Ryan: And what I often say in my classes is the
Ryan: most precious thing that was actually
Ryan: preserved on the ark wasn't animal life we
Ryan: wouldn't even necessarily say it was human
Ryan: life itself it was the promise that God
Ryan: said one of Eve's offspring is going to
Ryan: crush the serpent's head, and that was
Ryan: preserved with Noah on the ark.
Ryan: If God would have wiped out all humanity
Ryan: Genesis 3.15, this crushing of the
Ryan: serpent's head wouldn't be something that
Ryan: would come about.
Ryan: So we have, in the early chapters of
Ryan: Genesis, this raging seed war going on.
Ryan: Yeah, and I'm thinking as you're saying
Ryan: this, that the serpent, at this point,
Ryan: doesn't necessarily have any kind of
Ryan: timetable.
Ryan: He doesn't know if this is next week, next
Ryan: year, thousands of years from now, whatnot,
Ryan: so he's going to counterattack right away
Ryan: Cain and Abel, right, not knowing and
Ryan: thinking.
Ryan: Well, I can thwart this.
Ryan: Right and even the corruption of humanity.
Ryan: There's a debate about whether the sons of
Ryan: God going into the daughters of man was
Ryan: angelic going in to corrupt the line of
Ryan: humanity because it's a human.
Ryan: That's the position that I think is most
Ryan: compelling and I think that is part of the
Ryan: seed war and God when it says Noah was
Ryan: perfect in his generations.
Andy: You know, I have about a quarter of my
Andy: listeners just turn this off.
Andy: Well, you're one of those guys.
Ryan: Yeah, right exactly.
Ryan: Well, to let them know that's not going to
Ryan: be the dominant theme that we have here oh
Ryan: they don't care about that.
Ryan: No, stay listening, stay listening, there's
Ryan: still a good amount of meat on the bone to
Ryan: nourish you.
Ryan: But again you get to Noah.
Ryan: And again Noah was perfect in his
Ryan: generations.
Ryan: In his generations the seed promise was
Ryan: preserved through God preserving Noah and
Ryan: his family on the ark, and he destroyed the
Ryan: rest of humanity.
Ryan: Now you have them, come out of the Ark and
Ryan: the seed promise is still alive.
Ryan: And so the next step is Japheth oh, not
Ryan: Japheth.
Ryan: Shem, shem is the next step of the seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: So you have Ham, shem and Japheth, and Shem
Ryan: is the next step.
Ryan: He's the one that's chosen, and we read
Ryan: elements of this in the wake of the ark.
Ryan: And he continues Shem is where we get the
Ryan: term Semitic from.
Ryan: It's a little bit of a misnomer because
Ryan: usually when we talk about Semitic, we're
Ryan: talking about just the Jewish people.
Ryan: But if we're being really
Andy: it's an allusion to the seed promise.
Ryan: Yeah, it is Shem.
Ryan: And Shem is actually wider in scope than
Ryan: just the Jews, because all the Semitic
Ryan: people come from Shem, if we're being
Ryan: really specific in the way the term is used.
Ryan: But as we look at again the continued
Ryan: genealogy, so there's a continued genealogy.
Ryan: Why does it matter?
Ryan: But as we look at again the continued
Ryan: genealogy, so there's a continued genealogy,
Ryan: why does it matter?
Ryan: What does it matter that Shem, where the
Ryan: line of Shem leads to, well, it stretches
Ryan: back to Genesis 3.15.
Ryan: The next link in the seed promise is a huge
Ryan: one and that is Abraham.
Ryan: So, as we read in chapters 10 and 11 of
Ryan: Genesis which brings us to chapter 12, we
Ryan: have genealogy and elements that lead us to
Ryan: Abraham, and Abraham's significance cannot
Ryan: be really overstated.
Ryan: It is so significant because, out of this
Ryan: sea of humanity, now God chooses Abraham
Ryan: and it's through Abraham that he makes
Ryan: continued promises.
Ryan: Now, this isn't a shift or a change in his
Ryan: plan, it is an advancement of his plan.
Ryan: And when he speaks to Abraham, he speaks to
Ryan: Abraham regarding his Zerah, his seed.
Ryan: Abraham and his seed are going to be
Ryan: blessed.
Ryan: They're going to be blessed with the land
Ryan: of of canaan, um, which they're not going
Ryan: to inherit yet.
Ryan: Uh, we read of that in in genesis as well
Ryan: as in hebrews that abraham, isaac and jacob.
Ryan: And, by the way, when we look at that, when
Ryan: we refer to abraham, isaac and jac, you
Ryan: know what we're referring to.
Ryan: We're referring to the seed promise,
Ryan: because Abraham is chosen and then his seed
Ryan: is promised to be the heir of all of these
Ryan: promises.
Ryan: Now, who is the next seed?
Ryan: We have Abraham, and it's Isaac, not Is
Ryan: ishmael.
Ryan: And then from isaac, isaac has twins.
Ryan: And who's the next link in the seed promise?
Ryan: Is it esau or is it jacob?
Ryan: And ultimately, it's jacob, whose name then
Ryan: becomes israel, israel, uh, is um or jacob,
Ryan: abraham, isa, israel, abraham, isaac and
Ryan: Jacob has 12 sons and at the end of Genesis,
Ryan: there is promises given and ultimately, the
Ryan: son that is going to continue this promise
Ryan: of messianic lineage is Judah.
Ryan: And so you look at the book of Genesis
Ryan: itself.
Ryan: The genealogies that we find in Genesis all
Ryan: speak of this lineage, of the seed promise.
Ryan: Now you start with Genesis 3.15, and
Ryan: Genesis 3.15 is our first parents, and Eve
Ryan: is ultimately going to give birth to an
Ryan: heir, and that heir is Seth.
Ryan: And we see all of these genealogies made
Ryan: throughout the book of Genesis which lead
Ryan: us and we end with Judah being the one that
Ryan: has messianic elements to it that it's
Ryan: going to.
Ryan: The scepter will not depart from Judah
Ryan: until Shiloh comes, and to him will be the
Ryan: obedience of the people.
Ryan: So Genesis is a book all about the seed
Ryan: promise and that same promise that was
Ryan: given to Abraham that in him and in his
Ryan: seed, all the nations of the earth will be
Ryan: blessed, they will inherit the land seed.
Ryan: All the nations of the earth will be
Ryan: blessed, they will inherit the land.
Ryan: All of these things are outworkings of what
Ryan: we find in Genesis, chapter three.
Ryan: It's a continued advancement.
Ryan: So, historically, then, we find the seed
Ryan: promise go quiet for a while.
Ryan: It's not that the seed war isn't happening,
Ryan: because when we begin in Exodus, there is
Ryan: what is often called the first pogrom of
Ryan: the Israelites and I want to be careful
Ryan: here, because it's very interesting we
Ryan: often use the, we might say the first
Ryan: program of the Jewish people.
Ryan: Well, that's a little bit anachronistic,
Ryan: because at this time there were Hebrews or
Ryan: Israelites.
Ryan: Yes, there was the tribe of Judah within
Ryan: them, but the entity known as the Jewish
Ryan: people wouldn't become kind of known as a
Ryan: specific entity until after the split of
Ryan: the kingdom in 930 BC, which you had Judah
Ryan: to the south and Israel to the north, but
Ryan: nevertheless, the first pogrom of the
Ryan: Israelites to try to destroy this nation of
Ryan: the Israelites is found in Exodus, chapter
Ryan: 1.
Ryan: And it's fascinating to look at what was
Ryan: attempted.
Ryan: The Pharaoh that did not remember or know
Ryan: Joseph, after many generations, that
Ryan: generation died.
Ryan: After many generations, that generation
Ryan: died, but Israel grew to a large and mighty
Ryan: people within the realm of Egypt.
Ryan: You find that the Pharaoh that did not
Ryan: remember Joseph began persecuting the
Ryan: people of Israel and it advances in stages
Ryan: until you get to the point where they want
Ryan: to kill what?
Ryan: Every male child.
Ryan: Isn't that interesting?
Ryan: So every it's.
Ryan: Let the daughters live, but we're gonna
Ryan: kill every male child that comes forth from
Ryan: this people.
Ryan: And I think again from a big picture
Ryan: perspective, that is the seed war, the
Ryan: serpent looking to destroy the male
Ryan: children.
Ryan: And this continues as the like, I said, the
Ryan: seed promise.
Ryan: As far as specifically the genealogy goes
Ryan: quiet during the rest of the Torah, for the
Ryan: most part because another tribe really
Ryan: becomes front and center, and that's the
Ryan: tribe of Levi, because of the giving of the
Ryan: law.
Ryan: Tribe of Levi because of the giving of the
Ryan: law, but right when they enter into the
Ryan: promised land.
Ryan: It's interesting that the seed promise, in
Ryan: kind of a radical way, takes center stage
Ryan: again Now.
Ryan: Like I said, there's the singular lineage,
Ryan: this ancestry that is running through
Ryan: history.
Ryan: Now, ultimately, as we approach the New
Ryan: Testament, we know from the testimony of
Ryan: the New Covenant writings that Jesus is the
Ryan: ultimate fulfillment of this seed promise,
Ryan: this genealogy.
Ryan: What I often talk about in my classes is is
Ryan: imagine there being a dragnet, a figurative
Ryan: dragnet, that all of the promises and
Ryan: inheritance that is given to this seed,
Ryan: this ancestry, after it is, after the heir
Ryan: dies, or it's, or the inheritance is passed
Ryan: on, it drags to the next one, so one that
Ryan: is going to crush the serpent's head, one
Ryan: that's going to bless all the nations, one
Ryan: that is going to be the heir of the land
Ryan: and ultimately, this is drawing us
Ryan: historically then towards David, because
Ryan: David's the next big link in the seed
Ryan: promise, but the bridge between the Exodus
Ryan: and the monarchy.
Ryan: When you find the elements of genealogy,
Ryan: one, like I said, it's really surprising
Ryan: because this prostitute from Jericho, rahab,
Ryan: she becomes legendary because of her faith
Ryan: in the Lord and helping the spies, but the
Ryan: big contribution that she actually has, I
Ryan: should say the biggest contribution she has
Ryan: to salvation history is that she marries a
Ryan: man from the tribe of Judah, and Rahab
Ryan: becomes part of this advancing of the seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: So Rahab and Salmon, they produce.
Ryan: And there's another big surprise that comes
Ryan: a couple generations later and that is Ruth.
Ryan: Ruth marries Boaz.
Ryan: So you have a Canaanite woman and a Moabite
Ryan: woman that God chooses to marry, and the
Ryan: book of Matthew stresses these things in
Ryan: chapter 1.
Ryan: So we'll get to that in a moment, but we
Ryan: want to stop and demonstrate david as the
Ryan: next kind of the um portion of the
Ryan: advancement of the seed promise.
Ryan: So, uh, you know, ruth is is a.
Ryan: It is an amazing story, but it's you.
Ryan: But a lot of people gravitate towards the
Ryan: romance or the elements therein of these
Ryan: two people coming together.
Ryan: But when you get to the end of Ruth, we see
Ryan: the main purpose of the book of Ruth was to
Ryan: show the genealogy that leads us to David.
Ryan: So the seed promise continues.
Ryan: That began with Eve, goes through Abraham,
Ryan: isaac and Jacob and Judah, and now it
Ryan: brings us to David.
Ryan: And David, in 2 Samuel, chapter 7, is given
Ryan: a covenant and God makes a covenant with
Ryan: David, very similar to what he did with
Ryan: Abraham, and the covenant has to do with
Ryan: David's Zerah.
Ryan: Once again we have that seed promise.
Ryan: And this has to do with David's Zerah.
Ryan: Once again we have that seed promise and
Ryan: this has to do with kingship and the living
Ryan: of Israel as a nation and peace in the land.
Ryan: And that's going to come through the son of
Ryan: David.
Ryan: And this, of course, is where we get really
Ryan: heightened and specific messianic
Ryan: terminology and and expectation the son of
Ryan: david.
Ryan: And so we see the prophets speak of this
Ryan: son of david that's coming.
Ryan: So again, all of these things have a
Ryan: singular purpose and a singular source in
Ryan: this seed promise, stretching back to gen 3
Ryan: verse 15.
Ryan: So, advancing through the seed promise, the
Ryan: last link that we kind of have again, the
Ryan: last real big link that we have in the Old
Ryan: Testament to this seed promise, is
Ryan: Zerubbabel.
Ryan: Zerubbabel is a man that comes back from
Ryan: the exile and is governor in Judah and his
Ryan: name is fascinating because, first off,
Ryan: he's really the last big name in the seed
Ryan: promise that we find in the Old Testament,
Ryan: but his name you can kind of hear the word
Ryan: Zerah there.
Ryan: You can kind of hear the word Zerah there
Ryan: Zerubbabel, and his name means seed from
Ryan: Babylon.
Ryan: So there's all sorts of interesting
Ryan: elements that we don't have time to get
Ryan: into in regards to this, but there's a
Ryan: curse with Jeconiah and, ultimately, this
Ryan: question of is the Davidic dynasty going to
Ryan: last?
Ryan: If we know anything about the promises of
Ryan: God, we know it's going to, and Zerubbabel
Ryan: turns out to be that key that maintains the
Ryan: uh, the seed promise, uh, it's life.
Ryan: Of course we know it can't fail because god
Ryan: has promised it.
Ryan: But then we get of the during the silent
Ryan: years and we finally get to the arrival of
Ryan: the sea, the singular one, the he that is
Ryan: going to crush the serpent's head, the
Ryan: offspring of Abraham that is going to be
Ryan: the true singular one, the singular son of
Ryan: David that is going to be the Messiah.
Ryan: And how does the New Testament start?
Ryan: So let's read it.
Ryan: Let's read Matthew 1, verse 1.
Andy: The genealogy of Jesus Christ.
Andy: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ,
Andy: the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Ryan: Yeah, this first one, this first one.
Ryan: So the way we read our Bibles most of us, I
Ryan: guess we turn from Malachi to Matthew and
Ryan: the first thing we see is a genealogy and
Ryan: it's stressed that he's the son of David
Ryan: and the son of Abraham.
Ryan: This is the seed promise.
Ryan: The reason why both Matthew and Luke have
Ryan: genealogies is to note the fulfillment of
Ryan: the seed promise.
Ryan: And so you have in Matthew you have Abraham
Ryan: and David being the ones that are stressed.
Ryan: In Luke, you have it going all the way back
Ryan: to Adam.
Ryan: And so fascinating to see.
Ryan: Maybe that's fodder for a future episode.
Andy: The differences between those two
Andy: genealogies.
Ryan: Yep, it's a fascinating journey which
Ryan: ultimately that might not be that
Ryan: satisfying because I don't have the
Ryan: ultimate answer, but I do know kind of the
Ryan: ins and outs of the differences and I do
Ryan: have some grasp of why there are
Ryan: differences.
Andy: But as far as you have a quick like, maybe
Andy: a few minute, take on that to offer, or
Andy: best saved for?
Ryan: No, I can.
Ryan: I can give you my opinion first, what we
Ryan: can know, okay, uh, Matthew's purpose is to
Ryan: declare jesus as the son of abraham and the
Ryan: son of david, and that is, he's the one
Ryan: that blesses the nations and the and the
Ryan: one that is the Davidic king, the one that
Ryan: has all authority as the king.
Ryan: And we really see that in the bookends of
Ryan: Matthew.
Ryan: In Matthew, we see it beginning with the
Ryan: son of David, the son of Abraham.
Ryan: The son of Abraham is going to bless all
Ryan: the nations.
Ryan: That's what is declared In you and your
Ryan: seed, I will bless the nations.
Ryan: And at the end of the book of Matthew, you
Ryan: have Jesus give the great commission and he
Ryan: says behold, all authority is given to me
Ryan: in heaven, on earth.
Ryan: That's the Messiah, the son of David.
Ryan: And he says go, therefore, and make
Ryan: disciples of what?
Ryan: Of all the nations.
Ryan: So he is the fulfillment of the promises
Ryan: given to David and to Abraham.
Ryan: Fulfillment of the promises given to David
Ryan: and to Abraham.
Ryan: Luke is fascinating because Luke doesn't
Ryan: begin his gospel with the genealogy.
Ryan: It's wedged in chapter three, right after
Ryan: the baptism of Jesus, when it's declared
Ryan: you are my son.
Ryan: And rather than having an ascending
Ryan: genealogy that takes us from the beginning,
Ryan: from Abraham it descends, it goes backwards.
Ryan: So the purpose that Luke is developing is
Ryan: to show that Jesus is the son of God, the
Ryan: one that is going to destroy the works of
Ryan: the devil, and he takes us back to the
Ryan: garden where Adam failed.
Ryan: It descends back to Adam, the son of God,
Ryan: and we're taken back to the garden where
Ryan: Adam failed, and so it's after the baptism
Ryan: and before the temptation in the wilderness
Ryan: that you have this genealogy.
Ryan: So he takes us back all the way to the
Ryan: garden to contrast Adam with Jesus, because
Ryan: Jesus then goes forth and is tempted by the
Ryan: serpent, and where Adam disobeyed, jesus
Ryan: obeyed.
Ryan: That's why that's there and I'm very
Ryan: confident that's why that's there.
Ryan: The bigger question I shouldn't say the
Ryan: bigger question.
Andy: I like how you juxtapose this because I,
Andy: you know, I often, unless I'm sitting there
Andy: reading myself, it's easy to lose track,
Andy: for me at least, of where these different
Andy: stories come together within a book, like,
Andy: right, you know, um, I would have to go
Andy: back and look to see, oh, the genealogy is
Andy: followed by the temptations.
Andy: I didn't remember that.
Andy: But I like the emphasis on context, because
Andy: there's always something you can glean from
Andy: expanding the context a little bit.
Ryan: Yeah, and I remember when I was first
Ryan: reading the Bible and I thought it was
Ryan: weird that a genealogy is wedged right here,
Ryan: right in between the baptism and the
Ryan: temptation.
Ryan: Why is there a genealogy is wedged right
Ryan: here, right in between the baptism and the
Ryan: temptation?
Ryan: Why is there a genealogy there?
Andy: Well, it's good to keep in mind that the
Andy: chapter and verse demarcations didn't come
Andy: along until much, much later, Right?
Andy: So as Luke was writing this, he didn't say
Andy: this is chapter one of my letter
Ryan: and here's chapter four, that new topic,
Ryan: right, right.
Ryan: And so, yeah, it's there for a reason and
Ryan: there's themes.
Ryan: That's one thing to remember about the
Ryan: Gospels.
Ryan: The Gospels each have themes, and Luke has,
Ryan: even though he's drawing from a lot of the
Ryan: same source material historical source
Ryan: material, it's.
Andy: Well, Luke was a physician.
Ryan: Yeah
Andy: it'swell, luke was a physician, yeah, and
Andy: so I sometimes see that him going back to
Andy: adam, as you know, kind of what you're
Andy: saying, but also just to emphasize that
Andy: he's, he's a man.
Andy: Jesus is him, he's a son of god, but he is
Andy: a man
Ryan: right,
Andy: emphasizing his
Ryan: humanity.
Ryan: sure, and and going back to, and again,
Ryan: he's, but, but he's the ultimate man, he's
Ryan: the man that succeeds, uh, he's the he in,
Ryan: in a sense of genesis, chapter 3, verse 15,
Ryan: he's the one that actually is going to
Ryan: crush the serpent's head, so reminding us,
Ryan: taking us back to the garden.
Ryan: Uh, is, is a way to.
Ryan: Again, it's subtle, but it's brilliant, uh,
Ryan: you know so.
Ryan: Uh, the other thing in regards and this is
Ryan: something that we really don't have time to
Ryan: get into but the question about the
Ryan: differences, um in, in, uh, the names of,
Ryan: uh, luke, matthew's genealogies
Andy: He follows two different branches in the
Andy: tree
Ryan: and that's the historical suggestion.
Ryan: I should say it's really pretty modern, but
Ryan: it goes back.
Ryan: There are evidences that goes back to, I
Ryan: think, the early church that suggested this
Ryan: was that Luke's was Mary's genealogy and
Ryan: Matthew's is Joseph's.
Ryan: The problem that I have with that is that's
Ryan: not what the text says,
Andy: that's where I was going to go.
Andy: I've heard that many times times, but when
Andy: I just put that aside and read it, yeah, I
Andy: don't see it
Ryan: no, it just says this is, you know, he was
Ryan: the son of, as was supposed, the son of
Ryan: joseph, who was the son of, and then it
Ryan: continues, uh, and then it takes us all the
Ryan: way back.
Ryan: So, uh, that
Andy: well, be so that's wherewe get trouble
Andy: from our unbelieving neighbors is they like
Andy: to go to these differences and point at it
Andy: as contradictions, because they both do
Andy: appear to go through Joseph, but they're so.
Andy: I'm just looking at Luke 3.23.
Andy: Jesus, when he began his ministry, was
Andy: about 30 years of age, being the son, as
Andy: was supposed, of Joseph, the son of Heli.
Ryan: So again we have son of Joseph, son of Heli.
Ryan: It would be a cinch if it says Joseph, the
Ryan: husband of Mary, who was the daughter of
Ryan: so-and-so, who was the son of, but that's
Ryan: not what it says, right?
Ryan: It says it's tracing it through Joseph.
Ryan: So I do think again, both genealogies are
Ryan: correct in what they are trying to
Ryan: demonstrate.
Ryan: Uh, they're.
Ryan: the difference is again go ahead
Andy: sorry, as you were talking, I just kept
Andy: looking.
Andy: I went back to Matthew, chapter 1, and we
Andy: got verse 16.
Andy: We're getting to the end of the genealogy.
Andy: At this point it says and and Jacob, the
Andy: father of Joseph, husband of Mary.
Andy: So there again.
Andy: This is why, like I said, I've heard this
Andy: Mary versus Joseph genealogy, but that's
Andy: the plain reading of the text.
Ryan: The plain reading of the text doesn't.
Andy: But then that brings the question and we're
Andy: getting a little sidetracked.
Andy: I hope, but it's still part of the seed
Andy: promise element.
Andy: So Matthew says it's the father of Joseph
Andy: with Jacob, whereas Luke says it's Heli.
Ryan: Right.
Ryan: So which is right, and here are some of the
Ryan: suggestions for it, outside of the Mary
Ryan: thing, which, again, I don't see.
Ryan: You know, playing with the text, they're
Ryan: tracing it through Joseph, first off, we
Ryan: know these are selective genealogies, so a
Ryan: son of doesn't necessarily mean an
Ryan: immediate, like father, father-son
Ryan: relationship.
Ryan: So there's that.
Andy: Well, we see that elsewhere in the gospels
Andy: when jesus himself is referred to as the
Andy: son of David
Ryan: right, of course he's not the immediate one.
Ryan: So there's that dynamic.
Ryan: The other dynamic is is something that, uh,
Ryan: I have a hunch in regards to why there's a
Ryan: difference, and it does have to do with
Ryan: this Jeconiah curse that.
Ryan: I referenced and it's too long to get into.
Ryan: So let's just say that this could be good
Ryan: fodder for a future discussion.
Ryan: What's interesting is here's the key to
Ryan: understanding the Jeconiah curse.
Ryan: Interesting is, here's the key to to
Ryan: understanding the jechaniah curse.
Ryan: The jechaniah curse is that no son of
Ryan: jechaniah was going to be ruling and
Ryan: reigning on the throne, and it's at the
Ryan: point of jechaniah in luke's genealogy
Ryan: where there is a diversion.
Ryan: But both matthew note Zerubbabel.
Ryan: So something happens in that there seems to
Ryan: be some sort of diversion at that point
Ryan: which takes us from, rather from the kingly
Ryan: lineage that we find in Matthew, through a
Ryan: different lineage that still brings us back
Ryan: to David, but through his son, nathan.
Ryan: And so my theory is Luke is tracing a
Ryan: genealogy that bypasses the Jeconiah curse
Ryan: and it might have to do with a Leverite
Ryan: marriage or something like that, where
Ryan: there's an inheritance but there's a
Ryan: physical uh,
Andy: Where does Zeruabel show up on the scenes
Andy: of history?
Ryan: He's in.
Ryan: Well, right around 538 bc
Andy: is the return of the exile
Ryan: Right, right.
Ryan: So 538 bc is, I mean, Zerubbabel is already
Ryan: grown at that point, but he is um, you know
Ryan: he, he's the return of the exile.
Ryan: The book of Ezra, beginning of the book of
Ryan: Ezra, that's where we find Zerubbabel, so
Ryan: interesting things to, and they're related
Ryan: to what we're talking about, the seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: So, anyways, we're at the you know, the
Ryan: gospel account.
Ryan: So Jesus is the fulfillment at the gospel
Ryan: account.
Ryan: So Jesus is the fulfillment of the seed
Ryan: promise, and that is what we again look at.
Ryan: There are outworkings in regards to the
Ryan: seed promise, in regards to the many that
Ryan: we would say Israel as a nation is related
Ryan: and part of the seed promise, because they
Ryan: are the many, the seed of Abraham, the
Ryan: ethnic nation that comes from Abraham that
Ryan: God said he would make a mighty nation of.
Ryan: But we also have the spiritual offspring of
Ryan: Abraham, which is most important, and that
Ryan: really was the debate that Jesus had in
Ryan: John, chapter 8, was yes, I know you're
Ryan: Abraham's children, but you seek to kill me.
Ryan: You're of your father, the devil.
Ryan: So we need to have faith, like Abraham had.
Ryan: And let's turn to Galatians, chapter 3, and
Ryan: we'll see how we, whether we're Jew or
Ryan: Gentile, how we are related to this seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: So in Galatians, chapter 3, really the
Ryan: context here Paul is stressing who are the
Ryan: heirs of the promises given to Abraham and
Ryan: how do you receive this inheritance of the
Ryan: promises given to Abraham, which are, which
Ryan: is salvation, which is being blessed by the
Ryan: sovereign Lord, and being heirs of the land,
Ryan: which is the place of heaven, which will be
Ryan: inherited by Abraham and his offspring.
Ryan: So in chapter 3, first off, those who truly
Ryan: are the sons of Abraham.
Ryan: We see in verse 7 of chapter 3, paul says
Ryan: know that it is those of faith who are the
Ryan: sons of Abraham.
Ryan: And the scripture, foreseeing that God
Ryan: would justify the Gentiles by faith,
Ryan: preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham,
Ryan: saying in you shall all the nations be
Ryan: blessed.
Ryan: So then, those who are of faith are blessed
Ryan: along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Ryan: So, who are truly the sons of Abraham?
Ryan: Well, first off, individually, the son of
Ryan: Abraham is Jesus, and that's what we saw in
Ryan: Matthew, chapter 1.
Ryan: So he is the seed of Abraham.
Ryan: And later on, in chapter 3, paul says in
Ryan: verse 16, he says now, the promises were
Ryan: made to Abraham and to his offspring.
Ryan: It does not say to offsprings, referring to
Ryan: many, but referring to one in your
Ryan: offspring who is Christ.
Ryan: So Paul notes that the one.
Ryan: Paul isn't saying that there isn't a many
Ryan: dynamic to the offspring of Abraham,
Ryan: because we're actually going to see that
Ryan: later on in the text.
Ryan: And, furthermore, we would understand that
Ryan: even within the Genesis text when, in
Ryan: chapter 15, when God takes Abraham out of
Ryan: the tent and says look at the sky, look at
Ryan: the stars.
Ryan: So will your seed be.
Ryan: There wasn't just one star in the sky, it
Ryan: was saying that there were many are going
Ryan: to come.
Ryan: But the ultimate aspect of this and Paul is
Ryan: stressing the grammar here, showing that he
Ryan: didn't say offsprings, it was offspring, it
Ryan: was singular, collective singular depending
Ryan: on context it was Christ.
Ryan: So Christ is the seed, the ultimate heir of
Ryan: the seed promise.
Ryan: Now go down to verse 28 and 29.
Ryan: This is one of the most important passages
Ryan: in the Bible because it shows how, whether
Ryan: you're Jew or Gentile, it doesn't matter
Ryan: where you're from or what has come about.
Ryan: If you're in Christ, if you're in the seed
Ryan: of Abraham, in the seed of the woman, in
Ryan: the seed of David, that's Jesus, you are an
Ryan: heir.
Andy: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is
Andy: neither slave nor free.
Andy: There is no male and female, for you are
Andy: all one in Christ Jesus, and if you are
Andy: Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring
Andy: heirs, according to promise.
Ryan: So there we have it.
Ryan: I mean, it's plain as day right there.
Ryan: Jesus is the seed and if we're going to be
Ryan: counted as Abraham's offspring in the many
Ryan: sense, in the sense of being an heir of the
Ryan: promise of blessing, of inheriting the land,
Ryan: that is Christ's purpose and this is the
Ryan: radical thing here in Galatians is that
Ryan: Gentiles, through faith in Christ Jesus,
Ryan: become heirs of the promises given to
Ryan: Abraham.
Ryan: This was a scandal in the first century
Ryan: because there was always a thought and
Ryan: proclamations in the Old Testament, and a
Ryan: thought in regards to the rabbinical
Ryan: budding of Judaism was that well, gentiles
Ryan: are going to be a part of the kingdom to
Ryan: come, but they're not heirs.
Ryan: They're not heirs of the promises given to
Ryan: Abraham.
Ryan: They're going to be perhaps part of this in
Ryan: some tangential manner, but not heirs.
Ryan: And here we have full-standing citizens and
Ryan: heirs of the coming kingdom that is being
Ryan: given to Gentiles, and it doesn't matter
Ryan: whether you're Jew or Greek, slave or free
Ryan: male or female.
Ryan: So that speaks.
Ryan: Nationality is not an issue, economic
Ryan: status isn't an issue and whether you're
Ryan: male or female is not an issue.
Ryan: If you are a believer in Christ, if you're
Ryan: in Christ, then you are Abraham's seed.
Ryan: You are Abraham's seed, and it's sperma
Ryan: here, which is the Greek form of Zerah, and
Ryan: you're heirs according to the promise.
Ryan: So this is one of the most important texts
Ryan: in regards to the seed promise, galatians,
Ryan: chapter 3.
Ryan: This really is one that explains the Bible
Ryan: and shows how we're part of history.
Ryan: We who believe in Christ, who confess him
Ryan: as Lord and have the power of the Holy
Ryan: Spirit dwelling in us.
Ryan: We are fulfillments of biblical prophecy.
Ryan: We are those that are blessed among the
Ryan: nations and we have faith, like Abraham.
Ryan: Abraham heard the words of Christ and
Ryan: believed.
Ryan: We hear the words of Christ and believe,
Ryan: and, even though we may not be physically
Ryan: descended from Abraham, we are in Christ,
Ryan: who is the heir, who was physically
Ryan: descended from Abraham, and furthermore, we
Ryan: have all the spiritual benefits of Christ
Ryan: through faith.
Ryan: And that's what Galatians 3 is all about.
Ryan: It's not nationality that matters, it's
Ryan: faith that matters.
Ryan: Jew or Gentile, if you are in Christ, if
Ryan: you are chosen in him before the foundation
Ryan: of the world, if you are placed in him, if
Ryan: you, you know, again, repented of your sins
Ryan: and believe in him before the foundation of
Ryan: the world, if you are placed in him, if you,
Ryan: you know, again repented of your sins and
Ryan: believe in him.
Ryan: These are things that demonstrate us as
Ryan: being heirs of the promises given to
Ryan: Abraham, and this connects us to the whole
Ryan: Bible.
Ryan: It shows how what God was doing and
Ryan: promising and doing through Abraham isn't
Ryan: disconnected from us.
Ryan: It's very much related to who we are right
Ryan: now in Christ.
Ryan: So the next portion that we can explore in
Ryan: regards to this and we kind of get from
Ryan: again a thumbnail sketch from Genesis to
Ryan: Revelation is in Revelation, chapter 12.
Ryan: Revelation, chapter 12 and 13,.
Ryan: In particular chapter 12, though, is about
Ryan: this seed war, and having this
Ryan: understanding in the backdrop helps us
Ryan: understand how the seed war has progressed
Ryan: throughout history and how it still is
Ryan: going on Now.
Ryan: I'm a futurist in regards to the book of
Ryan: Revelation, so I don't think, at least from
Ryan: chapter 12, verse 6 on, I don't think these
Ryan: things have happened yet, but we'll address
Ryan: that as we go.
Ryan: Now let's read the first part of chapter 12,
Ryan: and we can see how this is related to the
Ryan: seed promise.
Ryan: Do you want to go ahead and read?
Ryan: Just write out one, read one through five,
Ryan: okay.
Andy: Revelation 12:1, and a great sign appeared
Andy: in heaven a woman clothed with the sun,
Andy: with the moon under her feet and on her
Andy: head a crown of twelve stars.
Andy: She was pregnant and was crying out in
Andy: birth pains, in agony of giving birth.
Andy: And another sign appeared in heaven Behold
Andy: the great red dragon with seven heads and
Andy: ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Andy: His tail swept down a third of the stars of
Andy: heaven and cast them to the earth, and the
Andy: dragon stood before the woman who was about
Andy: to give birth so that when she bore her
Andy: child, he might devour it.
Andy: She gave birth to a male child, one who is
Andy: to rule all the nations with a rod of iron,
Andy: but her child was caught up to God and to
Andy: his throne.
Ryan: Okay, so.
Ryan: interesting to note the language used here.
Ryan: Now, in the flow of Revelation from chapter
Ryan: the end of chapter 11, we have the trumpet,
Ryan: the seventh trumpet, sounding, and this is
Ryan: the kingdom of God has become the kingdom
Ryan: of, or the kingdom of this world has become
Ryan: the kingdom of God and of his Christ and he
Ryan: will reign forever, and so there is a
Ryan: transfer of power here and what I think
Ryan: chapters 12 through 14 is an interlude that
Ryan: speaks of this great seed war, and one
Ryan: through five is a recap.
Ryan: You have the woman first, you have the
Ryan: language, woman, which is interesting to
Ryan: use, woman and that's imagery stretches us
Ryan: back to genesis 3 15, but she's clothed
Ryan: with the sun and the moon under her feet
Ryan: and on her head a crown of 12 stars.
Ryan: So this is an allusion back to Joseph's
Ryan: dream in regards to Israel and the 12 sons.
Ryan: So woman, as well as the sun and moon and
Ryan: 12 stars, speaks of the seed promise, I
Ryan: think, stretching us again the language,
Ryan: stretching us back to Genesis 3.15, but it
Ryan: advancing to the point of Israel being the
Ryan: carrier of this promise.
Ryan: So the nation of Israel really was the one
Ryan: that ultimately gave birth to the son.
Ryan: That was what was promised.
Ryan: And so you have this seed war going on and
Ryan: notice here the dragon, who is the serpent
Ryan: we'll read that later in chapter 12, wants
Ryan: to devour the child.
Ryan: This stretches back to Genesis 3, verse 15.
Ryan: There is a son coming and, interestingly,
Ryan: in verse 5, the ESV here doesn't.
Ryan: There's actually a double stressing here
Ryan: that the ESV decided to forego.
Ryan: But it says the Greek more literally is she
Ryan: gave birth to a son, a male child, one who
Ryan: was to rule the nations.
Ryan: Now I actually like having the double
Ryan: stressing in there, because of course a son
Ryan: is a male child.
Ryan: You know, a male child is a son, but a male
Ryan: child.
Ryan: The reason why that, I think, is doubly
Ryan: stressed when you have the male child
Ryan: stressed, the reason why that, I think, is
Ryan: doubly stressed when you have the male
Ryan: child stressed, is it's an allusion back to
Ryan: Genesis 3.15.
Ryan: What was the one clue we had?
Ryan: Who was going to crush the serpent's head?
Ryan: It's a singular male.
Ryan: A male child was going to crush a he.
Ryan: So then we see that again, the serpent is
Ryan: looking to devour, but the child was caught
Ryan: up to God and to his throne, so he is the
Ryan: one who is to rule the nations with a rod
Ryan: of iron, and so ultimately, he fails in
Ryan: devouring the male child.
Ryan: And then we get to verse 6.
Ryan: And verse 6 is something that the woman we
Ryan: see.
Ryan: The woman fled into the wilderness, where
Ryan: she had a place prepared for by God in
Ryan: which she is to be nourished for 1260 days.
Ryan: So here we get into, based on the context
Ryan: and the language of 1260 days, we get into
Ryan: the happenings of this time period of
Ryan: Daniel, the last half of Daniel's 70th week.
Ryan: So we see that this woman flees into the
Ryan: wilderness and we read on in chapter 12
Ryan: that the serpent wants to destroy the woman
Ryan: Again.
Ryan: This is that seed war, amnity between the
Ryan: woman and the serpent and between his seed
Ryan: and her seed.
Ryan: Now the serpent or the dragon ultimately
Ryan: can't get to the woman here she's preserved.
Ryan: The serpent or the dragon ultimately can't
Ryan: get to the woman here she's preserved.
Ryan: And interestingly, then we get to the end
Ryan: of chapter 12 in verse 17.
Ryan: And if you want to read verse 17, we see
Ryan: the seed promise brought up.
Ryan: We have the seed promise and the seed war
Ryan: stressed here in language, but now it
Ryan: really unfolds and is explicit when we get
Ryan: to chapter 12, verse 17
Andy: Then the dragon became furious with the
Andy: woman and went off to make war on the rest
Andy: of her offspring, on those who keep the
Andy: commandments of god and hold to the
Andy: testimony of Jesus.
Andy: And he stood on the sand of the sea
Ryan: So we, we have the word seed here, the rest
Ryan: of her seed.
Ryan: So all three expressions of the seed
Ryan: promise, I think, are seen here.
Ryan: You have the one, the male child, who is
Ryan: Christ, and the serpent can't get to him.
Ryan: He fails.
Ryan: He's caught up to God, he's the one that's
Ryan: going to rule the nations.
Ryan: Then you have the woman here who, based on
Ryan: the language, speaks of the ethnic
Ryan: offspring of Abraham, isaac and Jacob,
Ryan: based on the language, at the beginning.
Ryan: And there is a remnant here, and again I
Ryan: think this has to do with the happenings at
Ryan: the midpoint of the 70th week, where
Ryan: there's a group that flees out of Jerusalem
Ryan: that the serpent can't ultimately destroy,
Ryan: and because he's not able to do that, he's
Ryan: furious and goes off to make war with the
Ryan: rest of her offspring.
Ryan: And the description is those who hold to
Ryan: the testimony of Jesus and keep the
Ryan: commands of God.
Ryan: This would be the church and again, the
Ryan: rest of her offspring would be connected,
Ryan: even though it's a different author,
Ryan: connected to the concepts that we found in
Ryan: Galatians 3.
Ryan: Those who keep the testimony of Jesus.
Ryan: And then we have verse chapter 13, which is
Ryan: about how he goes to war against those who
Ryan: keep the commandments of God and hold to
Ryan: the testimony of Jesus.
Ryan: So this seed promise dynamic, we see the
Ryan: seed promise continuing.
Ryan: Ultimately, who is the one that conquers?
Ryan: Christ conquers and he ultimately is going
Ryan: to raise his people.
Ryan: He ultimately is going to redeem Israel.
Ryan: And so this seed promise is something that
Ryan: has its fulfillment already in the coming
Ryan: of Christ.
Ryan: It has its fulfillment already in the
Ryan: existence of Israel, the existence of the
Ryan: church, and it's going to have its ultimate
Ryan: fulfillment as well when the Lord raises
Ryan: his people, when we rule with him and when
Ryan: he purifies Israel as a nation and they are
Ryan: made clean.
Ryan: And that's the things that we find in the
Ryan: book of Revelation.
Ryan: The serpent will not win, the serpent can't
Ryan: win All of these things that Christ, that
Ryan: God brings about through bringing Christ
Ryan: and Christ purifying Israel and his people,
Ryan: the church.
Ryan: These things come about because the serpent
Ryan: cannot win.
Ryan: Christ is the one that crushes the
Ryan: serpent's head.
Ryan: And just to kind of see how this ties the
Ryan: whole Bible together, in Revelation 22, the
Ryan: last mention of the seed promise is in the
Ryan: last chapter of the Bible, when Jesus says
Ryan: in verse 16, he says I, jesus, have sent my
Ryan: angel to testify to you about the things
Ryan: for the churches.
Ryan: I am the root and the descendant of David,
Ryan: the bright morning star.
Ryan: And the word there for descendant is
Ryan: offspring.
Ryan: So the seed promise is referenced by Jesus
Ryan: here in the very last chapter of the Bible.
Ryan: I am the descendant of David and again that
Ryan: goes back to the promises that were given
Ryan: to the seed of David, which Jesus fulfills.
Ryan: He is the Messiah.
Ryan: So that is a short journey through the seed
Ryan: promise.
Ryan: I don't know how long that took us.
Andy: I got an hour and four minutes just coming
Andy: up since I hit record.
Ryan: So about an hour, so that works.
Andy: Incredible timing on that.
Andy: Oh, I just discovered my iPad Bible has a
Andy: book after Revelation.
Andy: It's the tables of weight and measures
Ryan: Interesting.
Ryan: The 67th book.
Andy: Yeah, a bath Like a bath is about six
Andy: gallons or 22 liters.
Andy: Sorry, that's a, it's an aside.
Andy: It's got a bath, a becca, a core, a cubit,
Andy: a denarius.
Andy: All those things are actually good to know,
Andy: but not part of the seed promise.
Ryan: Not part of the seed promise.
Andy: Well, thank you, that was interesting,
Andy: great topic.
Ryan: Yeah, and again, I hope those that listen
Ryan: if this is something new.
Ryan: What's fascinating is this is just a
Ryan: cursory 20,000 feet looking over Genesis to
Ryan: Revelation.
Ryan: There's all sorts of minutia, further
Ryan: minutia that as you go through the curse of
Ryan: Jeconiah yeah, that type of stuff is all
Ryan: throughout the Bible.
Ryan: Yeah, that type of stuff is all throughout
Ryan: the Bible.
Ryan: And so there really isn't a book or a
Ryan: chapter that isn't probably in some way
Ryan: related to the seed promise and what God
Ryan: has planned and promised and bringing about.
Andy: Well, I always appreciate that.
Andy: I mean you can sit down and read your Bible,
Andy: pick up, read a couple chapters in a day
Andy: and read verse bible.
Andy: You know.
Andy: Pick up, read a couple chapters in a day
Andy: and and read verse by verse.
Andy: You know, as most christians will sit down
Andy: and do, but you don't pick up on those
Andy: things.
Andy: You know.
Andy: When you're in Galatians, it might have
Andy: been months since you read Genesis
Ryan: Right and having that, having that big
Ryan: picture is is is a way to, uh, really at
Ryan: times further understand the smaller
Ryan: picture, the more minutia is tied to the
Ryan: big picture and you can really see and make
Ryan: sense of the minutia in understanding the
Ryan: big picture.
Ryan: You need both.
Ryan: Both feed off of one another.
Andy: Right, yeah, cool.
Andy: Well, thank you.
Ryan: it was great to be with you and discuss
Ryan: these things.
Ryan: Yeah, thanks, for We'll see about the curse
Ryan: of Jeconiah and whether or not that is on
Ryan: the agenda for.
Andy: I'm going to put that on my list.
Andy: That would be a fun topic.
Ryan: And that's found in Jeremiah, chapter 29,.
Ryan: I believe.
Ryan: Let me confirm that.
Ryan: But yeah, it's in Jeremiah, because that is
Ryan: the text and it really is shortly before
Ryan: the declaration of the.
Ryan: For the declaration of the oh, I bet you
Ryan: it's back in 23.
Ryan: 22.
Ryan: Jeremiah, 22.
Ryan: Yep, jeremiah 22 is where we have the
Ryan: message to Jeconiah, and what's interesting
Ryan: is you have that and then in chapter 23,
Ryan: you have the declaration of the righteous
Ryan: branch.
Ryan: That was the thing right after that.
Ryan: So God's cutting off something, but he's
Ryan: also saying there's a righteous branch that
Ryan: is going to come, and all of those things
Ryan: are things that you want to pay attention
Ryan: to when looking at this curse of Jeconiah.
Andy: Cool.
Andy: Well, I had more I thought would be fun to
Andy: talk about, but given time and kind of the
Andy: nature of some of what I was going to say,
Andy: I think we'll take that offline.
Andy: That's cool.
Andy: Yeah, so I appreciate it.
Andy: Thanks for coming back and giving me a
Andy: chance to kind of revive after three months
Andy: of not posting an episode
Ryan: All right, thanks, andy, enjoyed it
Andy: Thanks
Speaker 3: Echo Zoe Radio is an outreach of Echo Zoe
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Andy: That wraps up episode 192.
Andy: Thanks for listening to Echo Zoe Radio.
Andy: For show notes, visit echozoe dor com,
Andy: slash 192.
Andy: Please also check out the Christian Podcast
Andy: Community.
Andy: There's an ever-growing list of fantastic
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Andy: Before I close, I want to talk a little bit
Andy: about the future of Echo Zoe Radio.
Andy: I've been doing the podcast since May of
Andy: 2008, over 16 years, and I've genuinely
Andy: enjoyed every episode.
Andy: That said, it's becoming increasingly
Andy: difficult to continue the show in its
Andy: current format.
Andy: New guests are much more difficult to get
Andy: than they were in the early days, and I'm
Andy: not sure I want to keep cycling through the
Andy: same list of guests that I've been doing
Andy: shows with for the last few years.
Andy: Podcasting is very different than it was in
Andy: 2008, 2009, 2010.
Andy: In many ways for the better.
Andy: It's easy to do and there are a lot of
Andy: great people doing it.
Andy: I set out to build a library of great
Andy: material addressing important issues that
Andy: my kids could someday reference to answer
Andy: their questions.
Andy: I've also sought to make the glory of God a
Andy: foundational motivator.
Andy: The library has become respectable over the
Andy: years, and all to God's glory.
Andy: This isn't to say that Echo Zoe Radio is
Andy: coming to an end, though it's not to say
Andy: that it isn't either.
Andy: I've reached an inflection point and
Andy: honestly, I don't know where to go from
Andy: here.
Andy: I do very much enjoy producing the show.
Andy: I just don't know where else to take it.
Andy: Seeking out a new guest and topic every
Andy: month takes more than I can give.
Andy: It seems that in order to continue, the
Andy: format will need to change, but I don't
Andy: know how there's much to say about
Andy: glorifying God in Echo Zoe Ministries and
Andy: in Echo Zoe Radio.
Andy: For one, while stats have always been
Andy: interesting, they've never been a driver.
Andy: I've never been preoccupied with unique
Andy: downloads or social media reposts.
Andy: I want God to be glorified, and
Andy: preoccupation with those things seems as
Andy: though it would be to seek a piece of that
Andy: glory, a piece that isn't mine.
Andy: For that matter, being the face or the
Andy: voice of a ministry, this ministry or any
Andy: ministry isn't important either.
Andy: There are so many other podcasters out
Andy: there doing a fantastic job in producing
Andy: wonderful God-glorifying shows.
Andy: While I love it too, I don't really need it.
Andy: I get enjoyment out of being a part of
Andy: serving God in some way, whether or not I'm
Andy: the face of it.
Andy: For example, I spent 10 years recording and
Andy: producing video of the sermons at Gospel of
Andy: Grace Fellowship.
Andy: I was never asked to do it, I just took it
Andy: on and I did it.
Andy: I did it because it helped my church.
Andy: I did it because it helped God's church.
Andy: I did it because I enjoyed it.
Andy: Going forward, I'm going to continue to
Andy: pray about what to do with Echo Zoe
Andy: Ministries.
Andy: Perhaps the podcast will continue as it has,
Andy: perhaps it will change a little, or maybe
Andy: I'll pursue other means of serving Him to
Andy: His glory.
Andy: Until I get it figured out, though, I think
Andy: it only prudent to adjust the frequency of
Andy: the show.
Andy: Echo Zoe Radio will be periodical.
Andy: It won't necessarily be a monthly show
Andy: anymore, though it won't likely be more
Andy: frequent than monthly either.
Andy: This episode was recorded on July 28, 2024
Andy: as the August episode.
Andy: There may or may not be a September episode
Andy: or an October episode, but, Lord willing,
Andy: we'll be back soon with another episode of
Andy: Echo Zoe Radio.